The sarcasm is unfortunate. How about, we are a small group of people, in a small room, trying to discover God. Trying to discover ourselves, trying to live in love. Come join us, it is a small space but there is always room.
I think the thing I like about it is how many of our churches spend great gobs of time and money coming up with a smooth line designed to draw other in.
I sometimes wonder if our worship services shouldn't look more like an AA meeting, than what they do now.
I agree with what I think is the spirit, of your closing statement Randall.
There is a real short supply of reverence, humility, honesty, simplicity and fraternity in much of what passes for worship at my church. I'm a lot more hopeful though, than I used to be.
Solutions begin with ourselves and the way we live out our faith. I notice that true faithfulness, humbly expressed by the actions of a brother or sister in Christ, always leads to increased reverence among the many. The Spirit is wildly contagious, if we do a little, God does a lot.
So let us challenge ourselves to live out the details of our lives as we are told in Micah, humbly, justly, lovingly. Let us build the great cathedral of God, Mankind, one brick at a time.
That "sweatshirt statement" may go a little too far, but I believe it lets folks know that we are but a group of imperfect people, wanting to find answers 'cause we don't have all the answers...allowing a place for the "questions of life" ie. is there a God? how do you know? can we share our stories about how we met God to those asking the questions? and yes, even be confused about things once in a while - together.... that, to me, is church.........
Hi Sharon, hi Becky. I think both of your responses are honest and legitimate expressions of people seeking a sincere faith relationship with Jesus. For me, the t-shirt isn't.
For the record, it told me that somebody thought an attitude that would be better suited to scalping Sum 41 concert tickets, would be an appropriate way to invite someone to church. It isn't. We all have to get over our youthful cultural arrogances and approach the altar of God with humility and reverence.
No matter how much I might have argued otherwise, Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven" was always the pseudo mystical musing of substance fuelled, self indulgence. It was never truly spiritual.
I'm still mulling this one...I'm not sure how I feel about the t-shirt. I think I like the sentiment of the shirt, and I do agree with both Sharon and Becky's statements.
For some reason what gets me is the "We suck... We have nothing to offer..." part.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it. Maybe it means "we, as human beings, have nothing to offer". And yet...
...Presumably we have love to offer, which is not just something, it's everything.
"We suck..." Well, we do and we don't. We're imperfect, we make stupid mistakes, but God still loves us dearly...
I don't know, maybe I'm misreading it (so forgive my pointed musings).
My two cents worth - I would love it if my confused kids or their friends responded to this invitation. I suspect they might not stay confused. When the invitation is written in Christianese, as most institutionalized churches write it, many can't translate it as a language they understand or want to know. I think they might get this and feel welcome.
Myself - I speak Christianese and I still like this as a loose translation of the words "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens... let me teach you..." from Matt 11:28-30 Seems to me this would be a teachable group.
I won't be buying one of the t-shirts. When I invite my friends to church, I expect them to find answers that they aren't finding elsewhere. If my church had nothing to offer I would find another one that did. (By the way, I dislike the word "suck" amd other words like "freaking" that so many Christians use regularly to convey a vulgar meaning without being quite daring enough to use the real term)
I think the designer meant well. Unfortunately while the church may or may not
"suck", to say that we don't know anything and that we have nothing to offer is just plain bunk. That's that. Anyone disagreeing can take it up with me outside...where we will have a nice cup of tea.
I guess I have to jump in on this one, Randall. I had a strong reaction to your sign. I don't like it! I don't like the look of it! It is grey and dingy! And the thought of saying to someone, "Come with your confusion and join me in mine and we'll wallow in our confusion together!" does not appeal to me!
How do I say this without sounding like a "Know it all?" I know I don't - but to put myself back at square one - "I know nothing" is to wipe out all of the years I have had walking with Him, living with Him and learning to know Him - and I can't do that. I know that what I have to learn compared to what I know is like comparing the earth to a fly speck on the wall. But comparing what I know of Him now compared to what I knew when I started this journey is like comparing a marble to a beach ball. I do know Him and He has enhanced my life, given me purpose, a reason for living. And I can't negatae that!.
Am I confused? I'm sure my days of confusion over the years have outweighed my days of clarity a hundred to one, but I put this down to the fact that He is the guide and I am the guided one. Most of the time I don't know where He is taking me, but I am convinced that He knows! He has everything under control and therein is my security and rest and peace. And I want to offer this to anyone who will listen.
Do I sound like a "know it all"? Sorry - but I do know whom I have believed and I'm persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed to Him.
I think I understand now I've followed the link back. Hip statement for the in-crowd of the EC.
Apparently it sold very well.
As already observed, there is an element of truth about it, but it's along the lines of "did God really say?"
Sorry if this seems harsh, but I think it needs to be. It's true that we don't have anything ourselves, but God should be in our midst. If He isn't then that Tee shirt IS true, but in that case one has to wonder what on earth is going on with those who talk about being part of the EC. In all honesty, this bothers me a lot, not because I'm afraid of what it says but because I had thought those behind it credible.
Wow, if you wanted responses, you got 'em. O.K. "suck" is a pretty grose word. I do find it easier to communicate and worship in honesty with Christians who believe they are "broken", not perfect. I have heard non-believers say they are too broken to come to church. They think people think they are perfect because they go to church and are hypocrites when they see them in other circumstances. I think God needs us to be broken to be able to work in us. It's as ugly as the T-shirt to me to see someone judging someone else because they are "perfect" Christians. At least the T-shirt is down to earth and honest - no pretenses, ready for a wash.
Hi Tammy. Please don't think that because I abhor the sentiments expressed by, the now infamous "T", that I mean to infer in anyway that I am somehow more perfect. Far from it.
Lost in the discourse is the very important point that, before Church is a gathering place for you and I to worship, it is the house of God. ALL expressions of its being, must be made lovingly and with great reverence. There is no room for sarcastic irony in describing or inviting the body to God's house, Period!
At the same time I am very sypathetic towards the spiritual message of your post and I do not see the contridiction in my position. For me the shirt speaks more to an effective marketing approach connecting with the subversive nature of youth then it does to any real spirituality.
I remember waaaaay back, when I didn't know the love of Jesus, when I was in THAT group that would have been watching...... I really believe THAT Tshirt would have said more to me than any "pat answer Tshirt" could offer. After all, I'm trying to let folks know I'm not perfect - yet. As they approach me (with my questionable Tshirt on) THAT is when they should see Jesus - in me. So when they ask me why I suck, I can say, well, I do, I make mistakes, I'm not perfect but Jesus makes me "unsuck" - when they ask me questions about "the shirt" - I can speak my own story - my own words of reality that are unique to me - and Jesus will be there, in all his glory......and we'll all have tea - Red Rose, that is!
Well, I came down to my little computer to check the email for the day and, ...wow what happened to the comments on this one!
I hesitated considerably, -about a day, before I posted this picture. (For those of you who may not know, the via. word will take you to the place I found the t-shirt. Sorry, It's not mine.)
I like your comments on it, and many of you are saying the same things, you're just describing the opposite sides of the same coin. I go both ways on it.
Yes, we are The Redeemed, so we have something to offer. And we do know something, rather, we know Someone.
But in my observation, there are days in which we do suck and have very little to offer.
It's probably during those days that we run our faith by ourselves, trying to offer ourselves. Rather than remaining in Christ, who has everything to offer, and who doesn't suck at all.
It's also not lost on me that this Anti-Marketing T-Shirt is in fact a very effective Marketing tool. Look at the stir it created in this space.
A part of me feels weird too, that we respond strongly to something like this, yet the previous pictures of dead children and soldiers doesn't seem to leave us with anything to say...
I've been trying to curb my blog commenting lately but this will be a long one so I appologize in advance.
I think there's a fine line between self depricating and just plain insulting. Would non-Christians want to join a group of confused, sucking, know-nothing people with nothing to offer? Nope! It sounds like non-Christians have a better handle on God than they do. Quite frankly, if that's what the church is, then things are better down at the local crack house where the peeps have something to offer and are getting on with their lives as best they can. I understand the idea of wanting to counter the pop-culture Christian church that is presented as perfect in every way, but isn't there a happy medium?
Then again, maybe this church is so culturally specific I don't understand the situation it's addressing or the meaning behind its language. Maybe it doesn't go far enough? Maybe its quite tame for the environment it's in? After all, when I was living between 20th and 22nd Street in Saskatoon this shirt wouldn't cause people to bat an eye. You'd have to throw in some f-bombs and mofos and cut it into a tanktop with a lot of cleavage and make sure it wreaks of weed to get some attention. Wow, what a church. Sign me up.
On a serious note... I try to be "real" in my relationship with God and with others. That's how I want to bring others to know my God and that's how I want to advertise my "church" (however you define that). There's always a pull to be so culturally relevant that eventually we may lose the thing that makes us different. If society is sarcastic and mean and insulting and church-hating, do we need to fall in line to be withnesses? I hope not.
So, in conclusion (don't tell my English teacher I just wrote that), I think I understand the spirit behind the shirt, but I also think it goes a bit too far. Perhaps its target audience isn't the non-Christian anyway, but the Christian disillusioned with the established church.
I think that is because of the hopelessness of knowing what to say! They left me so numb I didn't know what to do but pray! This one was much easier - I could spout off on it!
Interesting discussion. It seems everyone has something valid to say (with no insults being thrown!) Is this dialogue, or what?
Anyway, I wanted to say again that I agree with the sentiment of the T-shirt. It's the way that it's expressed that I wonder about...The lesson (re)learned here for me is that everyone has a different interpretation of what they see, and that a message can mean different things in different contexts.
"we respond strongly to something like this, yet the previous pictures of dead children and soldiers doesn't seem to leave us with anything to say... "
I hear ya. For what it's worth, I suspect that the lack of response to those horrible pictures is because a) what can one say about them?, and b) everyone likely agrees that it's horrible, tragic, depressing, frustrating, etc.--there's no question, so why argue?
Good chatting with you yesterday. Posting this shirt sort of makes you the Tony Campolo of P.A.! For me, the shirt defies over-analyzation; like a parable, the point either sinks in or doesn't. Personally, I like it because it's more about how we feel than how we think. When Phil Yancey was in Saskatoon, he said something to the effect that the church will always fail. That's one monkey off our backs. We don't need better theologians; we need better lovers and forgivers.
In spite of all our problems, the church is one thing in the world that is indestructable.
Thank you for the loving reminder regarding priorities, Randall. It speaks volumes. I will be spending some quality time with the Lord this evening in the "Blessed Sacrament", at our church. I will offer up my Rosary prayers for the people of Iraq. God Bless.
I hear what those offended are saying but if we have turned people off by our religiosity, our pious language, or our actions, don?t we suck? If we are so sure of our faith that there is no room to ask questions or be confused do we suck or are we just ?white washed sepulchers??
That doesn't mean that we think Jesus sucks or doesn't have the answers. And the shirt doesn't say that.
If I saw someone wearing a shirt like that I would take it as an open invitation to talk ? without judgment. I wouldn?t be afraid to approach someone wearing a shirt like that. I would be timid about approaching someone I didn?t know wearing a shirt saying ?Jesus is the answer? even if I know he is.
Linea, I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not sure there were too many here that were offended. For me, anyway, it was more a consideration of the implications of what it said. I think I may have gotten hung up on semantics more than anything...
I don't think what the shirt says is any more approachable than any other shirt. Yep, it got rid of the Christanese, but how many non-Christians would care about it says anyway. It's generated talk among Chrisians about our suckiness or not, but in the real world I don't think it will launch a "seeker" into a conversation with the wearer.
I once saw a guy wearing a "Satan Inside" parody shirt of the Intel logo. I wasn't really motivated to talk to him about his spiritual convictions. Hey, he was probably a Christian trying to use his anti-marketing, non-Christianese shirt to generate conversations with the unsaved.
Any way, if you look at the context of the shirt, it was made by Christians and worn by Christians infront of Christians at a Christian conference on the Emerging Christian Church. If it is a success it will end up in the wonderful world of Christian cr@p-0-rama merchandizing (which is what it opposes in the first place). I just can't see how this is a good conversation starter with non-Christians.
I think the best way to do outreach is to be a Christian. (Now let's discuss what being a Christian means.)
"our church invitation" - The Church is described in scripture as the Bride of Christ. If this invitation is from the Bride of Christ, how can it not be offensive? On the other hand, if the invitation is merely from a collection of imperfect church-going people such as me, then I suppose it's not as offensive.
"We Suck ..." - Do we really offer oral sex? OK, let's assume this term has somehow become acceptable (after all, this is the year 2004 and we want to be cool). If we are merely offering an invitation from us as church attenders, then yes we are broken, sinful people full of hang-ups. However, if the invitation is from the Bride of Christ, and we are a new creation, this seems inappropriate to me.
"We have nothing to offer ..." - Does the Bride of Christ really have nothing to offer? What about new life, fellowship, hope, joy, to name just a few? Sorry, but I don't want to accept this invitation.
"We don't know anything ..." - We have the divinely inspired Word of God, so how can we say we don't know anything? Maybe we need to improve our scriptural literacy.
"We are just a small group of people in a small room trying to discover more about God" - if the word "just" were removed, I could agree with this statment. However as the Bride of Christ we are much more than that.
"Come be confused with us" - Our God isn't a God of confusion.
Phil the unapologetic analyst (culturally irrelevant in a post-modern world?)
You had the courage to say what I preferred not to, although you didn't actually go so far as to use the word 'felch' (you REALLY don't want to know what it means folks).
I dunno. I'm not offended in a way, because I know where it comes from, and for that reason it hasn't really got any value. At the same time it IS insulting.
Like I said, we all make mistakes and that was one of them, possibly proving it's own point.
Re: the word "suck". Language evolves and is defined by context and intent. "Suck" no longer means what you think it means, if it ever meant that in the first place...
I think I'm starting to think Like Marc re. the "fun any more" stuff.
Yes, the Church Triumphant and bride of Christ images are solid. Yes Suck means something different than what it used to mean. Yes we do have the inspired word of God to lead and teach and guide us. The church, the Bride of Christ does have something to share with the world. And God isn't a God of confusion, correct. No Problem. Not a question.
Looking at who the original writer is, it looks to be a statement that is meant to provoke, using exaggeration. And, as Toni pointed out, it's made for a different group, by a different group.
Most church invitational publicity runs exactly opposite of this shirt.
We are Great...
We have everything to offer...
We know most everything...
We have a great deal of people who attend our church. And we meet in a wonderful large well equipped space where we listen to speakers tell us about God.
Come, and have all the answers with us.
And, as some of you have said, that language will not get through to a generation that knows it isn't true.
I liked Kelly's quote: "We don't need better theologians; we need better lovers and forgivers."
Ok, let's take this to another level. I'll do a new post on this. Then commment away.
The sarcasm is unfortunate. How about, we are a small group of people, in a small room, trying to discover God. Trying to discover ourselves, trying to live in love. Come join us, it is a small space but there is always room.
ReplyDeleteYeah Paul I hear you.
ReplyDeleteI think the thing I like about it is how many of our churches spend great gobs of time and money coming up with a smooth line designed to draw other in.
I sometimes wonder if our worship services shouldn't look more like an AA meeting, than what they do now.
I agree with what I think is the spirit, of your closing statement Randall.
ReplyDeleteThere is a real short supply of reverence, humility, honesty, simplicity and fraternity in much of what passes for worship at my church. I'm a lot more hopeful though, than I used to be.
Solutions begin with ourselves and the way we live out our faith. I notice that true faithfulness, humbly expressed by the actions of a brother or sister in Christ, always leads to increased reverence among the many. The Spirit is wildly contagious, if we do a little, God does a lot.
So let us challenge ourselves to live out the details of our lives as we are told in Micah, humbly, justly, lovingly. Let us build the great cathedral of God, Mankind, one brick at a time.
That "sweatshirt statement" may go a little too far, but I believe it lets folks know that we are but a group of imperfect people, wanting to find answers 'cause we don't have all the answers...allowing a place for the "questions of life" ie. is there a God? how do you know? can we share our stories about how we met God to those asking the questions? and yes, even be confused about things once in a while - together.... that, to me, is church.........
ReplyDeleteBeing confused and having questions in my faith have brought me even closer in my relationship to God. I could see me wearing that shirt. :)
ReplyDeleteHi Sharon, hi Becky. I think both of your responses are honest and legitimate expressions of people seeking a sincere faith relationship with Jesus. For me, the t-shirt isn't.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, it told me that somebody thought an attitude that would be better suited to scalping Sum 41 concert tickets, would be an appropriate way to invite someone to church. It isn't. We all have to get over our youthful cultural arrogances and approach the altar of God with humility and reverence.
No matter how much I might have argued otherwise, Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven" was always the pseudo mystical musing of substance fuelled, self indulgence. It was never truly spiritual.
I'm still mulling this one...I'm not sure how I feel about the t-shirt. I think I like the sentiment of the shirt, and I do agree with both Sharon and Becky's statements.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason what gets me is the "We suck... We have nothing to offer..." part.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it. Maybe it means "we, as human beings, have nothing to offer". And yet...
...Presumably we have love to offer, which is not just something, it's everything.
"We suck..." Well, we do and we don't. We're imperfect, we make stupid mistakes, but God still loves us dearly...
I don't know, maybe I'm misreading it (so forgive my pointed musings).
My two cents worth - I would love it if my confused kids or their friends responded to this invitation. I suspect they might not stay confused. When the invitation is written in Christianese, as most institutionalized churches write it, many can't translate it as a language they understand or want to know. I think they might get this and feel welcome.
ReplyDeleteMyself - I speak Christianese and I still like this as a loose translation of the words "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens... let me teach you..." from Matt 11:28-30 Seems to me this would be a teachable group.
I won't be buying one of the t-shirts. When I invite my friends to church, I expect them to find answers that they aren't finding elsewhere. If my church had nothing to offer I would find another one that did. (By the way, I dislike the word "suck" amd other words like "freaking" that so many Christians use regularly to convey a vulgar meaning without being quite daring enough to use the real term)
ReplyDeleteI think the designer meant well. Unfortunately while the church may or may not
ReplyDelete"suck", to say that we don't know anything and that we have nothing to offer is just plain bunk. That's that. Anyone disagreeing can take it up with me outside...where we will have a nice cup of tea.
Make mine english breakfast, and lets get ready to grummmmble.
ReplyDeleteI guess I have to jump in on this one, Randall. I had a strong reaction to your sign. I don't like it! I don't like the look of it! It is grey and dingy! And the thought of saying to someone, "Come with your confusion and join me in mine and we'll wallow in our confusion together!" does not appeal to me!
ReplyDeleteHow do I say this without sounding like a "Know it all?" I know I don't - but to put myself back at square one - "I know nothing" is to wipe out all of the years I have had walking with Him, living with Him and learning to know Him - and I can't do that. I know that what I have to learn compared to what I know is like comparing the earth to a fly speck on the wall. But comparing what I know of Him now compared to what I knew when I started this journey is like comparing a marble to a beach ball. I do know Him and He has enhanced my life, given me purpose, a reason for living. And I can't negatae that!.
Am I confused? I'm sure my days of confusion over the years have outweighed my days of clarity a hundred to one, but I put this down to the fact that He is the guide and I am the guided one. Most of the time I don't know where He is taking me, but I am convinced that He knows! He has everything under control and therein is my security and rest and peace. And I want to offer this to anyone who will listen.
Do I sound like a "know it all"? Sorry - but I do know whom I have believed and I'm persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed to Him.
I think I understand now I've followed the link back. Hip statement for the in-crowd of the EC.
ReplyDeleteApparently it sold very well.
As already observed, there is an element of truth about it, but it's along the lines of "did God really say?"
Sorry if this seems harsh, but I think it needs to be. It's true that we don't have anything ourselves, but God should be in our midst. If He isn't then that Tee shirt IS true, but in that case one has to wonder what on earth is going on with those who talk about being part of the EC. In all honesty, this bothers me a lot, not because I'm afraid of what it says but because I had thought those behind it credible.
I guess we all make mistakes......
Wow, if you wanted responses, you got 'em. O.K. "suck" is a pretty grose word. I do find it easier to communicate and worship in honesty with Christians who believe they are "broken", not perfect. I have heard non-believers say they are too broken to come to church. They think people think they are perfect because they go to church and are hypocrites when they see them in other circumstances. I think God needs us to be broken to be able to work in us. It's as ugly as the T-shirt to me to see someone judging someone else because they are "perfect" Christians. At least the T-shirt is down to earth and honest - no pretenses, ready for a wash.
ReplyDeleteHi Tammy. Please don't think that because I abhor the sentiments expressed by, the now infamous "T", that I mean to infer in anyway that I am somehow more perfect. Far from it.
ReplyDeleteLost in the discourse is the very important point that, before Church is a gathering place for you and I to worship, it is the house of God. ALL expressions of its being, must be made lovingly and with great reverence. There is no room for sarcastic irony in describing or inviting the body to God's house, Period!
At the same time I am very sypathetic towards the spiritual message of your post and I do not see the contridiction in my position. For me the shirt speaks more to an effective marketing approach connecting with the subversive nature of youth then it does to any real spirituality.
I remember waaaaay back, when I didn't know the love of Jesus, when I was in THAT group that would have been watching...... I really believe THAT Tshirt would have said more to me than any "pat answer Tshirt" could offer. After all, I'm trying to let folks know I'm not perfect - yet. As they approach me (with my questionable Tshirt on) THAT is when they should see Jesus - in me. So when they ask me why I suck, I can say, well, I do, I make mistakes, I'm not perfect but Jesus makes me "unsuck" - when they ask me questions about "the shirt" - I can speak my own story - my own words of reality that are unique to me - and Jesus will be there, in all his glory......and we'll all have tea - Red Rose, that is!
ReplyDeleteWell, I came down to my little computer to check the email for the day and, ...wow what happened to the comments on this one!
ReplyDeleteI hesitated considerably, -about a day, before I posted this picture. (For those of you who may not know, the via. word will take you to the place I found the t-shirt. Sorry, It's not mine.)
I like your comments on it, and many of you are saying the same things, you're just describing the opposite sides of the same coin. I go both ways on it.
Yes, we are The Redeemed, so we have something to offer. And we do know something, rather, we know Someone.
But in my observation, there are days in which we do suck and have very little to offer.
It's probably during those days that we run our faith by ourselves, trying to offer ourselves. Rather than remaining in Christ, who has everything to offer, and who doesn't suck at all.
It's also not lost on me that this Anti-Marketing T-Shirt is in fact a very effective Marketing tool. Look at the stir it created in this space.
A part of me feels weird too, that we respond strongly to something like this, yet the previous pictures of dead children and soldiers doesn't seem to leave us with anything to say...
I've been trying to curb my blog commenting lately but this will be a long one so I appologize in advance.
ReplyDeleteI think there's a fine line between self depricating and just plain insulting. Would non-Christians want to join a group of confused, sucking, know-nothing people with nothing to offer? Nope! It sounds like non-Christians have a better handle on God than they do. Quite frankly, if that's what the church is, then things are better down at the local crack house where the peeps have something to offer and are getting on with their lives as best they can. I understand the idea of wanting to counter the pop-culture Christian church that is presented as perfect in every way, but isn't there a happy medium?
Then again, maybe this church is so culturally specific I don't understand the situation it's addressing or the meaning behind its language. Maybe it doesn't go far enough? Maybe its quite tame for the environment it's in? After all, when I was living between 20th and 22nd Street in Saskatoon this shirt wouldn't cause people to bat an eye. You'd have to throw in some f-bombs and mofos and cut it into a tanktop with a lot of cleavage and make sure it wreaks of weed to get some attention. Wow, what a church. Sign me up.
On a serious note... I try to be "real" in my relationship with God and with others. That's how I want to bring others to know my God and that's how I want to advertise my "church" (however you define that). There's always a pull to be so culturally relevant that eventually we may lose the thing that makes us different. If society is sarcastic and mean and insulting and church-hating, do we need to fall in line to be withnesses? I hope not.
So, in conclusion (don't tell my English teacher I just wrote that), I think I understand the spirit behind the shirt, but I also think it goes a bit too far. Perhaps its target audience isn't the non-Christian anyway, but the Christian disillusioned with the established church.
I think that is because of the hopelessness of knowing what to say! They left me so numb I didn't know what to do but pray! This one was much easier - I could spout off on it!
ReplyDeleteIs this a record, Randall?
ReplyDeleteInteresting discussion. It seems everyone has something valid to say (with no insults being thrown!) Is this dialogue, or what?
Anyway, I wanted to say again that I agree with the sentiment of the T-shirt. It's the way that it's expressed that I wonder about...The lesson (re)learned here for me is that everyone has a different interpretation of what they see, and that a message can mean different things in different contexts.
"we respond strongly to something like this, yet the previous pictures of dead children and soldiers doesn't seem to leave us with anything to say... "
I hear ya. For what it's worth, I suspect that the lack of response to those horrible pictures is because a) what can one say about them?, and b) everyone likely agrees that it's horrible, tragic, depressing, frustrating, etc.--there's no question, so why argue?
Once again, only my take...
I like how Randall sums it all up.........
ReplyDeleteHey Randall,
ReplyDeleteGood chatting with you yesterday. Posting this shirt sort of makes you the Tony Campolo of P.A.! For me, the shirt defies over-analyzation; like a parable, the point either sinks in or doesn't. Personally, I like it because it's more about how we feel than how we think. When Phil Yancey was in Saskatoon, he said something to the effect that the church will always fail. That's one monkey off our backs. We don't need better theologians; we need better lovers and forgivers.
In spite of all our problems, the church is one thing in the world that is indestructable.
Thank you for the loving reminder regarding priorities, Randall. It speaks volumes. I will be spending some quality time with the Lord this evening in the "Blessed Sacrament", at our church. I will offer up my Rosary prayers for the people of Iraq. God Bless.
ReplyDeleteWow! A lot of people are offended by that shirt.
ReplyDeleteI hear what those offended are saying but if we have turned people off by our religiosity, our pious language, or our actions, don?t we suck? If we are so sure of our faith that there is no room to ask questions or be confused do we suck or are we just ?white washed sepulchers??
That doesn't mean that we think Jesus sucks or doesn't have the answers. And the shirt doesn't say that.
If I saw someone wearing a shirt like that I would take it as an open invitation to talk ? without judgment. I wouldn?t be afraid to approach someone wearing a shirt like that. I would be timid about approaching someone I didn?t know wearing a shirt saying ?Jesus is the answer? even if I know he is.
Linea, I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not sure there were too many here that were offended. For me, anyway, it was more a consideration of the implications of what it said. I think I may have gotten hung up on semantics more than anything...
ReplyDeleteWow, 2 posts in one day...
ReplyDeleteI don't think what the shirt says is any more approachable than any other shirt. Yep, it got rid of the Christanese, but how many non-Christians would care about it says anyway. It's generated talk among Chrisians about our suckiness or not, but in the real world I don't think it will launch a "seeker" into a conversation with the wearer.
I once saw a guy wearing a "Satan Inside" parody shirt of the Intel logo. I wasn't really motivated to talk to him about his spiritual convictions. Hey, he was probably a Christian trying to use his anti-marketing, non-Christianese shirt to generate conversations with the unsaved.
Any way, if you look at the context of the shirt, it was made by Christians and worn by Christians infront of Christians at a Christian conference on the Emerging Christian Church. If it is a success it will end up in the wonderful world of Christian cr@p-0-rama merchandizing (which is what it opposes in the first place). I just can't see how this is a good conversation starter with non-Christians.
I think the best way to do outreach is to be a Christian. (Now let's discuss what being a Christian means.)
A line-by-line analysis of the t-shirt:
ReplyDelete"our church invitation" - The Church is described in scripture as the Bride of Christ. If this invitation is from the Bride of Christ, how can it not be offensive? On the other hand, if the invitation is merely from a collection of imperfect church-going people such as me, then I suppose it's not as offensive.
"We Suck ..." - Do we really offer oral sex? OK, let's assume this term has somehow become acceptable (after all, this is the year 2004 and we want to be cool). If we are merely offering an invitation from us as church attenders, then yes we are broken, sinful people full of hang-ups. However, if the invitation is from the Bride of Christ, and we are a new creation, this seems inappropriate to me.
"We have nothing to offer ..." - Does the Bride of Christ really have nothing to offer? What about new life, fellowship, hope, joy, to name just a few? Sorry, but I don't want to accept this invitation.
"We don't know anything ..." - We have the divinely inspired Word of God, so how can we say we don't know anything? Maybe we need to improve our scriptural literacy.
"We are just a small group of people in a small room trying to discover more about God" - if the word "just" were removed, I could agree with this statment. However as the Bride of Christ we are much more than that.
"Come be confused with us" - Our God isn't a God of confusion.
Phil the unapologetic analyst (culturally irrelevant in a post-modern world?)
LOL @ Phil.
ReplyDeleteYou had the courage to say what I preferred not to, although you didn't actually go so far as to use the word 'felch' (you REALLY don't want to know what it means folks).
I dunno. I'm not offended in a way, because I know where it comes from, and for that reason it hasn't really got any value. At the same time it IS insulting.
Like I said, we all make mistakes and that was one of them, possibly proving it's own point.
Hmmmm...this discussion isn't so fun any more...
ReplyDeleteRe: the word "suck". Language evolves and is defined by context and intent. "Suck" no longer means what you think it means, if it ever meant that in the first place...
I think I'm starting to think Like Marc re. the "fun any more" stuff.
ReplyDeleteYes, the Church Triumphant and bride of Christ images are solid. Yes Suck means something different than what it used to mean. Yes we do have the inspired word of God to lead and teach and guide us. The church, the Bride of Christ does have something to share with the world. And God isn't a God of confusion, correct. No Problem. Not a question.
Looking at who the original writer is, it looks to be a statement that is meant to provoke, using exaggeration. And, as Toni pointed out, it's made for a different group, by a different group.
Most church invitational publicity runs exactly opposite of this shirt.
We are Great...
We have everything to offer...
We know most everything...
We have a great deal of people who attend our church. And we meet in a wonderful large well equipped space where we listen to speakers tell us about God.
Come, and have all the answers with us.
And, as some of you have said, that language will not get through to a generation that knows it isn't true.
I liked Kelly's quote: "We don't need better theologians; we need better lovers and forgivers."
Ok, let's take this to another level. I'll do a new post on this. Then commment away.