I suppose the dog collar means different things in different contexts.
He pastors the Azusa Christian Community Center, a Pentecostal, Independent Christian community.
He may wear the collar for different reasons.
I had a Baptist pastor friend in Winnipeg who had a collared shirt. He would use it when he needed to have people know and respect what he did, and why he came.
I think he used it with a kind of bikers ministry thing, or when in government offices, hospitals, etc.
Actually, while I was in Airports last week, I was thinking about getting one, to use in places where I wanted people to know what I'm about.
It may make you more approachable to those who desire the help of a Christ follower...
I think dog collars are cool. Those kind, not the degrading kind. They're an outward sign of an inward belief. But then again I almost like the idea of women wearing veils.
I've been part of churches for nearly 25 years where the 'pastor' (actually in our present churches, pastor is a ministry, not a title) has not owned a dog collar, except as a joke.
Now I know a small number of guys that do wear such things and walk with integrity. However for me, if I see someone in such a thing I'm suspicious and pretty much seek to avoid them. To me, it's a symbol of being bound into the world's way of managing religion, rather than being a part of the body of Christ.
Randall - I appreciate you as a man of integrity and faithfulness. I know you'd want to do it for the right reasons. In many ways I regret typing out my instinctive reaction. Yet something within me says the whole 'holy uniform' thing is plain wrong.
I'm in process of writing an essay on why I think tradition and liturgy is a problem for the church, and my thoughts are constantly developing. When (if) I ever finish it then I'd appreciate your critical eye across it.
I hear you Toni, and I appreciate your perspective.
I was raised in churches where it was all about the suits. Sometimes It looked like a Herb Tarlec convention (...interpretation, too many suits that looked like they were made from car seats...)
Fast forward till today. I get weirded out when I'm visiting or preaching in a church of suits.
To me, if a minister looks too much like an insurance salesman, (Not that there's anything wrong with selling insurance!!) It feels like he's trying to sell me something I'm not ready to buy!
I know I'm not to judge by viewing the outside, but it is also true that these feelings start inside me whenever I'm in that context again.
For me it means being able to do all my laundry on one setting. And everyone looks great in black/white. No risk of mixing stripes/plaid. No colours to worry about. And stains don't show up very much on black. Also provides a great shaving guide for my goatee - see also the witness to this point in the photo of my brother clergy in your post.
Unlike Toni, I love the minister's distinct garb. our pastor wears the collar on sundays; I wish he wore the entire vestments. The culture that surrounds us dislikes tradition because it entails authority.
In response to Toni, I'm not its possible to have a church w/o a liturgy (i.e., every church regardless of how informal, has a order of worship.)
I think CS Lewis is dead on when he wrote "[a liturgy works when] through long familiarity, we don't have to think about it. As long as you notice, and have to count the steps, you are not yet dancing but only learning to dance. A good shoe is a shoe you don't notice. Good reading becomes possible when you need not consciously think about eyes, or light, or print, or spelling. The perfect church service would be one we were almost unaware of; our attention would have been on God".
Andrew - I have some friends that are Anglicans. They have been honest with me in our discussions as to why they go to that kind of church. Nick likes the sense of theatre - he'd even prefer a catholic church because they do it to a higher degree. Lisa doesn't like surprises, and in an anglican service there is absolutely no chance of God breaking in, so she feels safe.
Really.
I wonder why you like tradition so much?
Johanna - I'm very disappointed in you. If all you can say after Andrew's comment is "ooooooo that's good" then I'm not surprised that 'christian ethics' shakes your beliefs to the core. I had thought you'd understood your faith and could look through less blinkered eyes than that.
As for 'liturgy' - Andrew, if your liturgy allows God's Spirit freedom to do whatever He wishes in your meeting without hinderance, no matter how inconvenient or unusual then I apologise unreservedly.
If he can't, then you need to ask yourself why you insist on doing things in a way that hinder God working.
No matter what one wears, being in a religious profession carries the risk of being completely misunderstood and bearing the projections of everybody else. For reasons similar to the ones Randall cited above, I don't think I'd wear a suit and tie very often while "on the job."
Also, liturgy is a word that means "work of the people. Baptists, Anglicans, Romans and Pentecostals all have liturgies. Some are simply more free flowing than others.
Why the presumption that God doesn't work in an anglican service? "God can't break in"? How do you define God breaking in? I didn't think God was limited to working in worship that is hip, new and disregards the saints that have gone before... Is God limited to the 'exciting', emotional, new or flashy...
Throughout scripture, and from the early beginnings of the church, liturgy was part of communal worship. old testament worship was highly structured and 'traditional', with plenty of ritual. The earliest followers of Jesus in the NT continued to worship in the temple, until they were forced out through persecution.
I like tradition for a number of reasons - one of which is that it connects us to a historical community of the Body of Christ, and points to something greater than my little individual experience as a believer. Traditional liturgy is comprised mostly of psalms, and other scriptures. Ironically, the evangelical churches I've attended have had little and sometimes no bible readings!
I'm curious why you dislike Lewis' comment so much?
Toni, I'm a little surprised that you (unless you were kidding) would 'chastise' Johanna in such a way. I find it refreshing that a young person would find joy in tradition, when the norm for that age group seems to be "It's not fun enough or hip enough."
'Unblinkered eyes'? You seem to be suggesting that you have the correct and objective view of church. I'm not sure how you could be sure of this.
I used to really dislike the traditional, liturgical stuff, and I still have very little experience with it. But this question has sort of shaken me up: "Did Christians/the Church have it all wrong for 1900 years? Did we just figure it out at the tail end of the 20th century?"
My answer has to be "No" to both. The Church, while the body of Christ, has been made up of humans from the beginning, and it is still made up of humans.
Whether or not people are not able to worship in a certain setting in style does not per se say something about that style or setting. It's just as likely to say something about that person.
I have to say, it's been an experience trying to worship in our Anglican Church this Edmonton winter. We've had energy efficiency experts here to help with weather stripping around all the windows, put in new doors and frames, caulking around the stained glass, insulation everywhere we could think of.
And yet I can still feel a peculiar 'draft' when we gather together to worship, pray, praise God and encourage one another. I don't know how it got in, but it did...
One fellow I trust simply explained it like this: "the wind blows where it will..."
I though I could preach with some fire in my belly, then I heard Rev. Eugene Rivers preach.
If he's so hot, why's he wearing a dog collar?
ReplyDeleteI suppose the dog collar means different things in different contexts.
ReplyDeleteHe pastors the Azusa Christian Community Center, a Pentecostal, Independent Christian community.
He may wear the collar for different reasons.
I had a Baptist pastor friend in Winnipeg who had a collared shirt. He would use it when he needed to have people know and respect what he did, and why he came.
I think he used it with a kind of bikers ministry thing, or when in government offices, hospitals, etc.
Actually, while I was in Airports last week, I was thinking about getting one, to use in places where I wanted people to know what I'm about.
It may make you more approachable to those who desire the help of a Christ follower...
I think dog collars are cool. Those kind, not the degrading kind. They're an outward sign of an inward belief. But then again I almost like the idea of women wearing veils.
ReplyDeleteI have very mixed feelings about this.
ReplyDeleteI've been part of churches for nearly 25 years where the 'pastor' (actually in our present churches, pastor is a ministry, not a title) has not owned a dog collar, except as a joke.
Now I know a small number of guys that do wear such things and walk with integrity. However for me, if I see someone in such a thing I'm suspicious and pretty much seek to avoid them. To me, it's a symbol of being bound into the world's way of managing religion, rather than being a part of the body of Christ.
Randall - I appreciate you as a man of integrity and faithfulness. I know you'd want to do it for the right reasons. In many ways I regret typing out my instinctive reaction. Yet something within me says the whole 'holy uniform' thing is plain wrong.
I'm in process of writing an essay on why I think tradition and liturgy is a problem for the church, and my thoughts are constantly developing. When (if) I ever finish it then I'd appreciate your critical eye across it.
I hear you Toni, and I appreciate your perspective.
ReplyDeleteI was raised in churches where it was all about the suits. Sometimes It looked like a Herb Tarlec convention (...interpretation, too many suits that looked like they were made from car seats...)
Fast forward till today. I get weirded out when I'm visiting or preaching in a church of suits.
To me, if a minister looks too much like an insurance salesman, (Not that there's anything wrong with selling insurance!!) It feels like he's trying to sell me something I'm not ready to buy!
I know I'm not to judge by viewing the outside, but it is also true that these feelings start inside me whenever I'm in that context again.
For me it means being able to do all my laundry on one setting. And everyone looks great in black/white. No risk of mixing stripes/plaid. No colours to worry about. And stains don't show up very much on black. Also provides a great shaving guide for my goatee - see also the witness to this point in the photo of my brother clergy in your post.
ReplyDelete(Almost afraid to say Rev.) Joseph Walker
ReplyDelete:-)
See, that's the kind of practical thinking that makes my day!
Randall, I don't think you're just twiddling your thumbs, and I think you do preach with fire in your belly. Or is it beans?
ReplyDeleteUnlike Toni, I love the minister's distinct garb. our pastor wears the collar on sundays; I wish he wore the entire vestments. The culture that surrounds us dislikes tradition because it entails authority.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Toni, I'm not its possible to have a church w/o a liturgy (i.e., every church regardless of how informal, has a order of worship.)
I think CS Lewis is dead on when he wrote "[a liturgy works when] through long familiarity, we don't have to think about it. As long as you notice, and have to count the steps, you are not yet dancing but only learning to dance. A good shoe is a shoe you don't notice. Good reading becomes possible when you need not consciously think about eyes, or light, or print, or spelling. The perfect church service would be one we were almost unaware of; our attention would have been on God".
ooooooo that's good.
ReplyDeleteAndrew - I have some friends that are Anglicans. They have been honest with me in our discussions as to why they go to that kind of church. Nick likes the sense of theatre - he'd even prefer a catholic church because they do it to a higher degree. Lisa doesn't like surprises, and in an anglican service there is absolutely no chance of God breaking in, so she feels safe.
ReplyDeleteReally.
I wonder why you like tradition so much?
Johanna - I'm very disappointed in you. If all you can say after Andrew's comment is "ooooooo that's good" then I'm not surprised that 'christian ethics' shakes your beliefs to the core. I had thought you'd understood your faith and could look through less blinkered eyes than that.
:(
As for 'liturgy' - Andrew, if your liturgy allows God's Spirit freedom to do whatever He wishes in your meeting without hinderance, no matter how inconvenient or unusual then I apologise unreservedly.
ReplyDeleteIf he can't, then you need to ask yourself why you insist on doing things in a way that hinder God working.
Interesting thread.
ReplyDeleteNo matter what one wears, being in a religious profession carries the risk of being completely misunderstood and bearing the projections of everybody else. For reasons similar to the ones Randall cited above, I don't think I'd wear a suit and tie very often while "on the job."
Also, liturgy is a word that means "work of the people. Baptists, Anglicans, Romans and Pentecostals all have liturgies. Some are simply more free flowing than others.
Why the presumption that God doesn't work in an anglican service? "God can't break in"? How do you define God breaking in? I didn't think God was limited to working in worship that is hip, new and disregards the saints that have gone before... Is God limited to the 'exciting', emotional, new or flashy...
ReplyDeleteThroughout scripture, and from the early beginnings of the church, liturgy was part of communal worship. old testament worship was highly structured and 'traditional', with plenty of ritual. The earliest followers of Jesus in the NT continued to worship in the temple, until they were forced out through persecution.
I like tradition for a number of reasons - one of which is that it connects us to a historical community of the Body of Christ, and points to something greater than my little individual experience as a believer. Traditional liturgy is comprised mostly of psalms, and other scriptures. Ironically, the evangelical churches I've attended have had little and sometimes no bible readings!
I'm curious why you dislike Lewis' comment so much?
Toni, I'm a little surprised that you (unless you were kidding) would 'chastise' Johanna in such a way. I find it refreshing that a young person would find joy in tradition, when the norm for that age group seems to be "It's not fun enough or hip enough."
ReplyDelete'Unblinkered eyes'? You seem to be suggesting that you have the correct and objective view of church. I'm not sure how you could be sure of this.
I used to really dislike the traditional, liturgical stuff, and I still have very little experience with it. But this question has sort of shaken me up: "Did Christians/the Church have it all wrong for 1900 years? Did we just figure it out at the tail end of the 20th century?"
My answer has to be "No" to both. The Church, while the body of Christ, has been made up of humans from the beginning, and it is still made up of humans.
Whether or not people are not able to worship in a certain setting in style does not per se say something about that style or setting. It's just as likely to say something about that person.
I have to say, it's been an experience trying to worship in our Anglican Church this Edmonton winter. We've had energy efficiency experts here to help with weather stripping around all the windows, put in new doors and frames, caulking around the stained glass, insulation everywhere we could think of.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet I can still feel a peculiar 'draft' when we gather together to worship, pray, praise God and encourage one another. I don't know how it got in, but it did...
One fellow I trust simply explained it like this: "the wind blows where it will..."
:^)] (smiley wearing a clergy collar)