Friday, November 26, 2004

Really??

Johanna's looking at a number of schools to attend next year.

She wrote one, highly regarded Bible Institute, and asked if her tiny nose piercing would be a concern for them.

They wrote back saying they allowed a simple piercing in a ladies ear. Many of the supporters wouldn't support the school if they didn't have this rule.

Huh? I thought we were past that?

Or am I too liberal a dad?



(The following were the original comments that didn't transfer over well in the move to Blogger)



Marc Vandersluys said at 7:42 pm on November 26th, 2004:
Flaming.


2Clinton said at 11:00 pm on November 26th, 2004:
Christians need to realize that their own biases may have nothing to do with Christian life whatsoever.
However, this school is extremely cheap because it is heavily subsidized. It would cost 2 or 3 times as much for a similar education elsewhere. So, if some very conservative, and very old people (I presume) want to pay for Christians to receive their education, and they ask for no facial jewelry in return, that’s reasonable.


3Jim Litteral said at 10:32 am on November 27th, 2004:
Sheeesh! Oh yes, appearances have always been an important biblical critieria for discerning godly character. Especially with guys like David (I Sam.16:7) and Jesus (Isa. 53:2). My daughter would be ineligble for the same reason – and she is a pretty amazing Christian.


4Brad said at 12:10 pm on November 27th, 2004:
The type of education she would get from a school which majors in such minors is probably going to be of questionable value. Aim higher.


5Matt said at 12:56 pm on November 27th, 2004:
Woah, lets not get too hasty to disavow anyone who has physical standards of modesty and propriety. I could start rambling on about the idea of a negative spiral of cultural conformity and how facial piercings lead to a decension into immodesty, but I don’t entirely agree with that.
But some people do, and I can understand where they are coming from. Look at when Paul tells the women of Corinth to be more modest and such in their physical appearance. It’s different, I’ll admit, but I think that’s the principle people use who are opposed to stuff like nose rings.
If I’m not mistaken, even CBC isn’t allowed to have dances because some of its supporters do not believe that is proper. At least that’s how it was when I went. I think it’s the same type of thing, and CBC is an great school.
Or what about “no alcohol” rules? Alcohol is Biblical, so if you are of legal age why can’t you drink it when you are at a Bible College, as long as you don’t get drunk? No one ever brings that up too often.


6Clinton said at 4:07 pm on November 27th, 2004:
Good points. We all have our own taboos. I wouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water here. No one is inelligible from this particular school, they just have to take out their piercings. If someone felt it was more important to wear their facial jewelry than attend this school I’d question where their heart is at?


7Johanna said at 11:17 pm on November 27th, 2004:
I generally agree with clinton and matt. It’s their school, so it’s their rules. It’s also their loss of liberal-minded students. Seems like a lot of the people who’ve commented here are at the opposite end of the spectrum: totally liberal. for me the issue’s not so much the nose peircing; it’s a non-issue. It’s more about cutting people from society out, and is the school ready to teach/learn from the secular world. I just don’t want to take my peircing out, because the scar tissue would be pretty bad (I’ve taken it out once already) and it probably wouldn’t be a good idea for me to repeirce it after I finished my courses.
Cuz really, if body jewelry is a non-issue, then it’s just as much an issue to take it out as it is to leave it in.


8Dan said at 9:13 am on November 28th, 2004:
So, just to be clear, they actually said in the response that it was due to the supporters? I’m surprised they would be that candid, sort of like saying “we’d like to let you in, but we’d lose all our money” which is the kind of personal information you don’t usually make public. If they truly said that, then I have a bigger problem with it than simpy saying “we’ve chosen to draw a line and nose piercings are out”


9Leighton Tebay said at 11:24 am on November 28th, 2004:
At Bethany a number of faculty kids are students. One has a rather sizeable lip ring. Johanna, you are safe here.
Call Dave Carey, our admissions person at 947-2175.
This has been a very biased plug by a Bethany College staff member.


10Steve Menshenfriend said at 1:10 pm on November 28th, 2004:
You are liberal Randall. The next thing you’ll be pushing is a “Safe”-Grad.


11Michelle said at 2:42 am on November 29th, 2004:
Been struggling with (against) similar jewellery issues imposed by the place where I work – another Christian institution. The new student handbook is WAY strict, and we’ve lost students over it already. I don’t see what it has to do with one’s salvation, other than driving others away from it, but thus far have managed to keep my mouth shut (barely). To me, it’s nit-picking while bigger issues go unmentioned and un-dealt-with. But I’m in a huge minority with that view here.


12Toni said at 4:14 am on November 29th, 2004:
“school ready to teach/learn from the secular world.”
Without wishing to be difficult, what can a christian school usefully learn from the world? Not a great deal, I’d suspect.
I’m not really sure what the deal is, since I don’t know all the facts. However if the school IS good in all other respects, and this doesn’t reflect an oppressive philosophy then it seems a little humility might not be mis-placed. Especially if they ARE subsidising their student’s education.
Of course this might reflect a much less savoury philosophy and approach to the students, in which case the place should be avoided like the plague. My mother spent 2 years at a ‘missionary’ school in the 50’s, and quite frankly the place was sadistic, brutal and operated in a manner calculated to subjugate and humiliate anyone that didn’t ‘roll on their back’ in submission.


13Toni said at 11:07 am on November 29th, 2004:
Just looked at Johanna’s site.
“we don’t allow any piercing with the exception of ears for the gals. This unfortunately does mean that we don’t allow nose rings. I know that it’s seems weird, but there are some supporters of PRBI that are still not comfortable with piercing and we do it out of respect for them. It’s a sacrifice to take out piercings, but we need to have an attitude of humility. We’ve found that most students don’t find it a big deal to take out their piercing because it’s only for a season.”
Doesn’t seem like a big deal at all to me. You want to be part of us – these are the rules. It’s not repression and it’s not hypocritical or anything dubious.
Maybe I’m not alone in finding piercings distasteful (including ears) although I tend to live and let live.


14Jean Harder said at 10:59 pm on November 29th, 2004:
liberal-minded is putting it mildly! What sets aborn-again Christian apart from the rest of the world? I believe that the world has filtered into the churches. eg. Are body piercings And jeans worn down to the “crack of the bum” not part of the world? Just my opinion.


15Sharon said at 8:14 am on November 30th, 2004:
I liked your sermon on Sunday….Christianity is Jesus plus nothing else – not Jesus plus how you dress, or Jesus plus nose jewelery, not Jesus plus circumcision, not Jesus plus anything else. Period. Liberal? – I suppose it depends which “anything else” you have tagged on to “Christian”……and I love what your daughter has and is becoming – she has, as I have observed her, shown Jesus more than many “mature” Christians I have met. So I would encourage both she and you, Randall….you both are Jesus plus nothing!


16Toni said at 11:49 am on November 30th, 2004:
BTW on the ’schools’ thing, Johanna was wondering whether to take a year out and spend it on a discipleship course. The main church in Oxford run a ‘year team’ which includes some serious theological teaching and practical training in all kinds of areas. They view it as equipping the wider church.
We have a number of friends that have done it, and found it very good indeed. If she wanted an ‘adventure’ in a different culture then it would be worth considering. It would need to be explored within the next few months rather than later though, since IIRC these things fill up fairly quickly. I did mention it on her blog too.


17Clinton said at 4:10 pm on November 30th, 2004:
There are many “worldly” things that have oozed into the “church” I suppose. But for the life of me, I can’t see how peircings are any more worldly than women wearing make-up, perfume or pants. (Those who live in glass houses, etc, etc…)
I laugh when I hear what some Christians think is “worldly” or “unchristian”.
The “world” uses cars, so maybe we should stop using cars.

The “world” uses buttons, so maybe we should stop using buttons.

The world listens to country music, so for the sake of all that is holy, please ban those alternating bass lines and the chords G, C and D.

The “world” dyes their hair, so we should stop dying hair.

The “world” reads NIV so we should only read KJV.

The “world” has a drug addiction to caffeine which leaches calcium from the body and creates a chemical dependancy in the user, so maybe we should stop drinking coffee.

For crying out loud, the “world” even breathes air. What am I supposed to do now?
So what separates Christians from the “world”? Perhaps the love of God shining through us. Perhaps the fruit of the Spirit. Perhaps our lack of piercings.


18Marc Vandersluys said at 5:26 pm on November 30th, 2004:
Interestingly, I understand that “the World” reads “NRSV”–and when was the last time you heard that used in church?


19Jean Harder said at 6:23 pm on November 30th, 2004:
Clinton: I don’t have time to “discuss this topic with you right now. I have a bible study to go to. However, you don”t make much sense with Your reasoning. Being testy about someone’s opinion is not the way to go. Maybe you should mature a few years,eh?


20Clinton said at 10:05 pm on November 30th, 2004:
Jean, my response was a joke. I was trying to contrast pointless things people consider Christian with what I consider truly Christian. Hopefully readers will see the ridiculusness of it all and stop calling cultural biases “Christian”.


21Johanna said at 10:12 pm on November 30th, 2004:
wow. 19 comments; don’t know if that’s a good thing or not. but I’m going to add my 60 cents, so beware.
It doesn’t seem to me that Clinton is being exactly testy, more sarcastic.
I would agree with him, to an extent. Sure, having a nose peircing isn’t against the ten commandments (11 if you count Jesus’ addition), but if it causes a brother in christ to stumble or doubt his faith, then I think that’s where the line needs to be drawn. I don’t think clothing is a real issue, as long as it’s modest and not degrading to anyone (including oneself).
Of course some of the culture will seep into the church, because the church is made up of human people, and unless I live in a church, or under a rock, I will always be influenced by the world around me. This influence will either strengthen or destroy my faith, and the choices I make will decide that.
For me, matters of clothing and jewelry aren’t a big deal. I don’t disagree with responsible, adult, consumption of alcohol. I don’t have a problem with associating, or being friends with, unchristian people. But for some people, these are issues, and when I’m around them, I need to respect that, to an extent. If, when I’m a real adult, I have friends over, and they think that for christians to drink a glass of wine with supper is wrong, then I won’t serve it. Or if they were a recovering alcoholic, I wouldn’t do that, because (besides being rude) it might cause them to stumble.
If I’m supposed to go somewhere where peircings and such are “of the world” like ministry to the Amish or something, then there’s no question, I’ll change. But where I am, trying to reflect christ in my school and my world, the peircings are okay, and not much of an issue. If god wants me at that school, he’ll make it known, and I’ll remove the offending items.


22Jean Harder said at 11:46 am on December 1st, 2004:
Johanna: For a young girl of 17 or whatever,I must commend you for YOUR maturity. You do make a lot of sense. It is nice to hear that you respect other people’s religious belief whether you agree with them or not. Thank you.


23Clinton said at 12:06 pm on December 1st, 2004:
Jean, you hurt me. I would not do something to intentionally hurt another person, Christian or otherwise. I respect other’s religious beliefs and agree with Johanna. I tend to make my points through sarcasm though and I’m sorry if that offended you. Age does not always equal maturity. I think we’ve both proved that. If you want to say something to me, please email me. I’ve tried to email you but your link isn’t working for me.


24Tyrus said at 4:22 pm on December 1st, 2004:
It would appear that points made through sarcasm are more likely to offend than would a straightforward dialogue, and maturity jabs aside, it seems that respect for one’s elders has fallen by the wayside these days.
A question though… If an institution has a defined set of entrance rules, who are we to make light of what was probably well thought and hopefully prayed over? To me the question is where is the line drawn? Nose piercings today? Navels tomorrow? 2 piercings? A dozen? How much until our appearance does more to scare away potential members to HIS flock than to encourage joining? Do we have to become the world to attract converts?


25Clinton said at 9:34 am on December 2nd, 2004:
I apologize for flogging this dead horse one more time. I would like a chance to restate my opinion in a more respectful manner. The reason this topic strikes so close to home for me is because I served as a youth leader for several years in Saskatoon where I served under unreasonable and conflicting expectations from Christians. From this experience I have learned that no one can please every Christian at the same time because even Christians hold opposing views. To try to conform to everyone’s expectations of what a Christian should be and avoid everyone’s expectations of what the world is, is to live in man-made bondage which God never intended. This has nothing to do with piercings. This is all about cultures. People assign characteristics to the “world” and to “Christians” that have nothing to do with the “world” or “Christianity”.
The problem is that cultures change. When we base our understanding of “Christian” or “world” on culture we will find that we’ve built our theology on sand, not the Rock. At one time women who wore pants or make-up were considered “worldy”. At one time guitars were actually considered immoral because they were shaped like male anatomy. (I am serious. this isn’t sarcasm.) This isn’t so today, mostly. I would ask anyone who does something today that was considered “worldly” 50 or 100 years ago (like wear make up, pants, dance, play drums, listen to Jazz, fly in airplanes) to examine what they consider “worldly” today. Chances are it is based more on a particular cultural understanding than anything to do with Jesus and our relationship with God. It is possible that we offend others just as much as we are offended because of our cultural convictions. I agree that we need to sensitive to the culture we are in, but we should also be aware that it is only culture.
What defines something as “Christian” should be based on Christian morality which in turn should be based on the character of God. What defines something as “worldly” should be based on the opposite, which I will call sin. So many of my convictions crumble when I use this as a measuring stick. I’d ask that people who disagree on what is “worldly” or “Christian” do the same. I have had my opinions change many times when I’ve come across people with differing ideas who show me their reasoning and why I may be missing the mark.
I don’t think it is wrong to question the values of Christians or intitutions. It lets us see the reasoning behind these values. We then have a foundation to respect the values or respectfully disagree based on understanding, not opinion. The institution or Christian may even change their view when they realize their bias. In this way, iron is sharpening iron as we all encourage each other to become more like Christ. Being like Jesus is what should attract people to us, not our adherence to culture. Non-Christians may be just as turned off by a group of people in suits and dresses as a bunch of people with tattoos and piercings. It all depends on culture, not “worldliness”. Jesus trancends culture.


26Clinton said at 10:11 am on December 2nd, 2004:
I have had the privelege of being in many churches in several different cultures in different parts of the world.
Some of these Churches have organs, drums, distorted electric guitars, piercings, dyed hair, make-up, don’t allow make up, dance, hug, cry, laugh, ignore emotions, preach in shorts, preach for an hour, paint pictures, wear ties, wear swimsuits, serve alcohol, have icons, reject idols, separate men and women, separate children from adults, frown on Halloween, dress in Halloween costumes and give out candy, play country music, play hymns, play jazz, play contemporary music, chant, don’t believe in musical instruments, drive mercedes, walk for miles, use sweetgrass, smoke cigarettes, have same-sex preferences, date, don’t date, don’t gamble, win $10 million, avoid pubs, hold gospel nights in bars, shun technology, use powerpoint, have small groups, don’t have small groups, wear hats, forbid hats, have religious hats, require head coverings for women, don’t allow women in ministry, have women pastors, only use KJV, don’t allow men to have long hair, require that women do have long hair, use only latin, speak in tongues, ascribe tongues to the devil, baptize infants, rebaptize those baptized as infants, use ritz for communion, eat Jesus during communion, serve coffee, teetotal, own a building, rent a building, don’t have a building, meet in a house, meet in a tent, meet in a field, tithe, go bankrupt, reach out, reach in, use chairs, use pews, use dirt, have memberships, believe being a Christian is membership, love Jesus, serve Jesus, become more Christ-like.
I have been in many Christian cultures and none of them are identical. Their only similarity is Jesus. He tends to be unchanging and eternal for some reason .


27Randall said at 11:28 am on December 2nd, 2004:
Thanks Clinton for trying again.
I like, “we need to sensitive to the culture we are in, but we should also be aware that it is only culture”
Indeed. Well put.


28Phil L said at 1:05 pm on December 2nd, 2004:
Unfortunately it isn’t always easy to agree on what is merely a cultural preference versus sin. However, assuming we have a high view of scripture, we can use the question that the founders of the Evangelical Covenant Church were so fond of, “where is it written?”. Of course we still won’t always agree on our interpretation of scripture, but that question should help us avoid arguments about body piercings and tattoos, etc., while agreeing on biblical principles such as sexual purity, modesty, avoiding vulgar talk, etc.


29Jean Harder said at 1:08 pm on December 2nd, 2004:
You guys; This is sick. I mean really! I am sorry I gave my thoughts on this subject. I thought this blogging thing was so that anybody could voice their thoughts or beliefs. Clinton, yousay you cannot get through to me on my email. Well, I have something to say to you, so please let me know if you get it. Thanks.
30Clinton said at 2:51 pm on December 2nd, 2004:
I agree, Phil. It’s not all black and white. There are obvious times when culture clashes with Christianity and then there are times when biblical principles say nothing about cultural trends. I discuss those topics with other Christians to see how God is leading them. Sometimes I find those issues aren’t directly sin issues as much as respect and obedience issues.
I also agree with you Jean. Blogging is a place where anyone can voice their thoughts and beliefs. I also agree that having bum cracks hanging out of pants is wrong. That’s based on my view of what the bible says about sexual purity and modesty. I still haven’t received any email yet. My address is me_clint@hotmail.com or ccc009@usask.ca .


31Tyrus said at 2:57 pm on December 2nd, 2004:
“I thought this blogging thing was so that anybody could voice their thoughts or beliefs.”
No offense intended Jean, but I thought that’s what everyone was doing. That doesn’t mean that we are all going to agree, in fact, I suspect many never will on issues of personal appearance. I am comfortable with my personal beliefs, and find it intersting to hear different views. I will also freely discus these issues most times.
That being said, I’m not willing to debate to the point of offending others here. Since this seems to be happening, I’ll simply take my leave.

God bless you all.


32Jean Harder said at 3:34 pm on December 2nd, 2004:
Clinton: I apologize for any offensive comments I made to you. I will not be emailing you at this time. Let’s respect one anothers religious beliefs – all of us. Friends?


33Randall said at 4:23 pm on December 2nd, 2004:
Well, alas I think this horse is dead on the highway.
I want to thank those of you who contribute helpful and challenging thoughts to randallfriesen.com. At least you don’t always hear it as I see it, and that’s a good thing. I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed.
I also want to apologize if some of you felt misunderstood or cornered. That is not the purpose of this space. Writing words on a screen can be a very limiting way to communicate, especially about things we are passionate about.
And I confess I don’t have the time to moderate lengthy ongoing discussions that happen here. My life is real busy right now.
We’ve also entered Advent, a time of quieting our spirits and looking ahead. So I’m trying to cultivate a posture of stillness and watching. Watching for God. Watching for His hand in people’s lives. Watching for His love and grace and mercy.
So, I’m pulling the plug on, what did we start out talking about…? oh yeah, my daughter, Bible schools, holes in the body, and financial supporters.
Peace to each of you who read these words this Advent season.
God’s Peace.

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